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Hi all, I was wondering what would be your maximum house edge if hypothetically you had a computer play perfectly based on the composition of the deck?
The wizard of odds has optimal house edge in those conditions if the deck is reshuffled here each hand, but I couldn't find any stats on standard games of course it'd depend on the penetration The game I commonly play is 6 deck S17 late surr with a blackjack edge card counting edge of 0.
Would it be possible to overcome that house edge with a fixed bet in that case?
How about if also the bets are sized perfectly according to the kelly criterion?
PS: I love this forum and this is my first post here, as surprisingly I couldn't find any discussion on this subject, probably blackjack edge card counting it's just a hypothetical but I thought it is potentially useful for online live dealers for example.
If there was a discussion about it I didn't find please let me know!
Quote: tyler498 Hi all, I was wondering what would be your maximum house edge if hypothetically you had a computer play perfectly based on the composition of the deck?
The wizard of odds has optimal house edge in those conditions if the deck is reshuffled after each hand, but I couldn't find any stats on standard games of course it'd depend on the penetration The game I commonly play is 6 deck S17 late surr with a house edge of 0.
Would it be possible to overcome that house edge with a fixed bet in that case?
How about if also the bets are sized perfectly according to the kelly criterion?
PS: I love this forum and this is my first post here, as surprisingly I couldn't find any discussion on this subject, probably because it's just a hypothetical but I thought it is potentially useful for online live dealers for example.
If there was a discussion about it I didn't find please let me know!
Hi Welcome, new member.
Wizard's calculations and basic strategy cards have to make a few assumptions and basically assume infinite deck.
Some other strategy cards are based on massive sample sizes of computerised play.
So often you will see a few hundredths of a percentage difference between such strategies for the same rules.
I have experimented with continuously evaluated strategy based on analysis of actual cards remaining in an 8 deck shoe.
That continuous evaulation would occasionally vary from accepted basic strategy, e.
Such computer evaluation achieves the same sort of improvement as card counting on steroids and would be more perfect than even the best card counting system.
That sort of evaluation combined with aggressive wonging, would beat the game, quite considerably, just as card counting and flat bet wonging could.
The best case margin and hourly rate is very low however, and getting your ass banned from the casino would be inevitable.
Technically and legally, computer assisted play is cheating and deemed illegal in most domains.
Quote: OnceDear Hi Welcome, new member.
Wizard's calculations and basic strategy cards have to make a few assumptions and basically assume infinite deck.
Some other strategy cards are based on massive sample sizes of computerised play.
So often you will see a few hundredths of a percentage difference between such strategies for the same rules.
I have experimented with continuously evaluated strategy based on analysis of actual cards remaining in an 8 deck shoe.
That continuous evaulation would occasionally vary from accepted basic strategy, e.
Such computer evaluation achieves the same sort of improvement as card counting blackjack edge card counting steroids and would be more perfect than even the best card counting system.
That sort of evaluation combined with aggressive wonging, would beat the game, quite considerably, just as card counting and flat bet wonging could.
The best case margin and hourly rate is very low however, and getting your ass banned from the casino would be inevitable.
Technically and legally, computer assisted play is cheating and deemed illegal in most domains.
Hi OnceDear, thanks for the reply!
I know it's cheating and honestly wasn't considering it I can't even run a simulation to answer my question.
And one-tenth of a percent in house edge is surprisingly low!
Thanks again Agreed Once Dear.
Your experiment is interesting.
In developing A5 in the 80's using a marginal computer by today's standards, Flat-betting A5 reduced the House edge of S17, 6-deck, 70%pen, DD any 2, DAS, late surr by about half from -0.
Yes Aces and Fives are important in Blackjack.
Regards 98 Quote: tyler498 I was wondering what would be your maximum house edge if hypothetically you had a computer play perfectly based on the composition of the deck?
I don't recall an answer for this.
However, something I read a long time ago said 60% winning sessions was possible for some counting strategies, and computer-assisted perfect play could have 80% winning sessions.
Don't have a reference.
Plenty of big named teams ran "shoe teams" with computers when they were legal or even after and lost due to the regular variance of the game.
I wouldn't think even with computer assistance one could win 80% of their sessions.
The maximum possible edge in blackjack doesn't come from basic strategy or card counting, but other techniques which go far and beyond.
The max edge one could get from basic strategy is to get the game about break even assuming docslot portal game, decent comps, counting comps towards winnings, etc.
The max edge one could get from traditional lone wolf card counting could be around 2-3% given special conditions of wonging, penetration, etc.
This wouldn't be something that would last very long or be real life applicable now days in blackjack super aceh opinion.
Next, you'd need to look at the big player approach with spotters and a team.
Assuming you have the spotters playing a break even game, you still only get about a 3% advantage on the big player, but he's playing big money, so the EV returns are much higher than a lone wolf approach.
Quote: Ibeatyouraces Are we talking about your edge on any given hand or an overall edge?
I am talking about overall edge.
Quote: Romes Even with computer shoes people still lost tons.
Plenty of big named teams ran "shoe teams" with computers when they were legal click here even after and lost due to the regular variance of the game.
I wouldn't think even with computer assistance one could win 80% of their sessions.
The maximum possible edge in blackjack doesn't come from basic strategy go here card counting, but other techniques which go far and beyond.
The max edge one could get from basic strategy is to get the game about break even assuming good game, decent comps, counting comps towards winnings, etc.
The max edge one could get from traditional lone wolf card counting could be blackjack edge card counting 2-3% given special conditions of wonging, penetration, etc.
This wouldn't be something that would last very long or be real life applicable now days in my opinion.
Next, you'd need to look at the big player approach with spotters and a team.
Assuming you have the spotters playing a break even game, more info still only get about a 3% advantage on the big player, but he's playing big money, so the EV returns are much higher than a lone wolf approach.
I totally agree, I guess I should've been more specific but I meant not including those other techniques, although it is true they would provide a bigger edge.
Was I'm wondering is, for instance if you see the Wizard's house edge calculation at WoO, I quote the methodology: "The "basic strategy with cut card" results are based on total dependent basic strategy, like online blackjack winning strategy tables on this site, and the use of a cut card, which favors the dealer.
This is one stat I have a hard time finding.
This is one stat I have a hard time finding.
This shouldn't be 'that' difficult to find.
I'm TRYING to remember the edge obtained by these 'perfect composition' playing machines, but I can't recall certain enough to post.
I'm fairly confident it was a bit more, but not a ton more, than regular counting.

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If you can add and subtract by 1.
This is only partially true.
Card counters actually track the ratio of high cards to low cards in the deck by giving high cards a value of -1 and low cards a value of +1.
Low cards this web page worse for the player because they increase your probability of going bust.
So, if you can find a deck that has more 10s and aces in it, you can raise the size click your bet and turn that house edge into a player edge.
The trick is to avoid the following five card counting mistakes.
The first time I read a book about how to count cards, I thought I was ready to get started.
The problem blackjack edge card counting that this is harder to do than I thought.
Casinos are loud, distracting places, and blackjack tables get the hands dealt and played faster than you think.
So, how do you get ready?
First, practice at your kitchen table using a single deck of cards.
Count through it one card at a time until you wind up with a count of 0 at the end.
Try to beat your time every time you practice.
Move up to flipping over two cards click a time.
Keep timing yourself, and make sure that your count is accurate.
Play the radio, the television, and let the kids play.
Card counting is a long-term proposition, and in the short run, anything can happen.
The bigger your bankroll is compared to your average bet, the less likely you are to run out of money before that happens.
But you have a 40% probability of going broke if you do.
If you get up to 1000 units, you reduce your probability of going broke to less than 1%.
The test question blackjack edge card counting about the first thing that would be impaired when you were blackjack seasoning />The correct answer was judgment, not balance, eyesight, reflexes, or anything like that.
Counting cards and playing blackjack with an edge over the house requires excellent judgment.
Some of this requirement is obvious.
You must be able to count well enough to know when to raise your bets.
You must be able to play with perfect basic strategy.
My suggestion is to have a firm handle on how much you can drink before your judgment is impaired.
Anything beyond one or two drinks is just denial on your part.
And even if you never deviate from basic strategy, you can make blackjack edge card counting counting cards just by blackjack edge card counting the size of your bets when the count is positive.
There are pages on this site that explain the basics, and you can find charts and tables galore with the correct moves, too.
Casinos frown on card counting.
And blackjack edge card counting easiest way to get caught counting cards is to stay in one place for too long.
Counting cards will work a lot better for learn more here if you adopt a hit and run strategy.
Never play at a casino more than three times a week.
Never spend more than an hour in a given casino.
Try to play during different shifts during your three visits.
And pay attention to whether anyone is paying a lot of attention to you and your play.
At the first hint of heat, cash out and leave.
Try not to let it stress you out.
Luckily, in Vegas anyway, the days of getting dragged into the basement and being roughed up by security are ancient history.
Conclusion Counting cards is a fun way to make blackjack more interesting, and if you want to play a game with a mathematical edge blackjack edge card counting the house, this is one way to do it.
You just need to understand common card counting mistakes and learn how to avoid them.
You also need to stay sober and avoid staying in one place for too long.

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Because he never wagers when the casino has the edge, and he wagers a flat. In this context, blackjack card counting is near the bottom.


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We said at the beginning of our guide that we will be discussing two styles of successful blackjack play 鈥?basic strategy, employed by recreational players who play the game for the experience, and card counters, whose main goal is to profit by beating the house.
Thus, successful card counting is the peak a player can reach.
When asked what they think of card counting, many people, particularly those who know little of card games, depict an illegal activity used to cheat the casino.
Granted, casinos hate card counters and ban them from their premises.
However, this has nothing to do with the legality or illegality of card counting, rather the fact that card counters have an edge in blackjack and beat the house at its own game.
And because card counting is perfectly legal, casinos have no other way to protect themselves except to ban card counters they have detected.
They wouldn't want to adopt harsh game rules that would outright discourage card counters from playing because that would drive away the normal players as well.
click the following article counting is nothing more than keeping track of the blackjack edge card counting played and adjusting the player's betting and playing strategy in accordance to the deck's remaining cards.
This is a strategy used to determine whether the hand is likely to give the player a probable advantage, or a disadvantage.
Unlike roulette or craps where each round has no impact on future decisions, each hand in blackjack depletes the deck and until cards are shuffled, keeping a card count provides the player with a mathematical edge over the casino.
Card counting is based on statistical evidence that high cards, especially Aces and 10-valued cards, benefit the player more than the dealer, while low cards, particularly 4s through 6s, increase the house's inherent edge.
This is because a high count of still available 10-valued cards increase the player's chance to hit a blackjack, which is usually payed out at the preferential 3:2 ratio, and players also stand a better chance of winning a doubled-down hand.
Meanwhile, low cards benefit the house because the dealer has to hit stiff hands hard hands valued at 12 through 16.
The greater the number of low-valued cards, the higher the dealer's chance is to win the hand, and the lower the probability of drawing a 10-valued card and busting.
Card counters do not cheat in any way, they merely adopt to the changing conditions based on information available to all other players.
If you think of it, blackjack card counters don't do anything different compared to poker players, for example.
Poker players calculate their odds based on the hand they have and then recalculate them once the rest of the cards are dealt on the table.
The change in probability to win is then factored into their decision-making.
Regardless of whether they decide to raise the bet, fold or just check, they do it on the base of information that is available to everyone else of course excluding their own cards.
And since card counting in blackjack is not tied to any form of cheating, the casino has its hands legally tied.
So they ban suspected card counter from playing at their tables and enforce the view that these people are cheaters engaged with illegal activities.
Another common misconception is that card counting is only for mathematicians and people with memory close to photographic.
Just like the previous statement, these two are also false.
All the mathematic knowledge you would need is to be able to add, subtract and divide small numbers.
Memory requirements are also minimal as for the most common card counting system you would need to remember only one product of mathematical operations.
Card counting does, however, require determination and a lot of experience to master all the skills needed to be able to successfully count cards in a crowded and noisy casino under the nose of dealers, pit bosses and so on.
What card counting is all about We know what card counting achieves from the previous section of the guide 鈥?it allows skilled players to play blackjack with positive win expectations against the house.
We haven't mentioned, however, how it does that.
We've said that basic strategy players do flat betting and employing proper basic strategy allows them to play at the smallest possible disadvantage to the house, say somewhere near -0.
Basic strategy is basically the best way to play a hand off the top, i.
However, maximizing results after that is entirely in the realm of the card counter.
Whereas the basic strategy player is pretty much stuck with the mathematically calculated basic strategy plays which we listed in tables in the first section of our guidecard counting tips the scales in favor of the player by enabling him to customize his game.
Specifically, card counting allows the player to: 鈥?modify basic strategy based on the count 鈥?adjust the bet size according to the count Thus, card counting requires knowing basic strategy inside and out.
If you've missed that part, we suggest you go back at the start of the guide and go through our basic strategy section.
Knowing basic blackjack edge card counting and being able to adjust it, however, is not the most valuable benefit of card counting 鈥?being able to adjust the size of your blackjack edge card counting is.
Although counters can be profitable with flat betting, this is generally true only for the most player-friendly deeply penetrated single-deck games.
Casinos know that, and exactly for that reason it is highly unlikely that you will find such a table.
Thus, being able to size your bets according to the advantage you know you have is the single most important feature of card counting.
To be more specific, we will present the value of discarding a certain card for the player in the table below.
The data assumes we are dealing with a single deck.
Thus, a higher-deck game would see that effect diluted proportionally to the deck count, but that goes both ways and affects the dealer and player alike.
Discarding Cards in Single-Deck Games Card out of play Player expectations 2 +0.
Next come 4s, 6s, 3s, 2s, 4s and 7s, while 8s are irrelevant.
On the other hand, discarding an Ace lowers players' expectations the most, followed by 10-valued cards and 9s.
And as we've explained earlier, the reason is simple 鈥?the pity, blackjack in singapore casino can the 10s and Aces are, the lower the player's chance for a blackjack becomes.
And the 3:2 blackjack payoff is what makes the game a nearly even one.
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Card counting is a casino card game strategy used primarily in the blackjack family of casino games to determine whether the next hand is likely to give a probable advantage to the player or to the dealer. Card counters are a class of advantage players, who attempt to decrease the聽...


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